Views on top four centres

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by Site Co-ordinator 29 Jun 2010, 4:33pm

The Talk of the Town results indicate most participants prefer additional dwellings to be provided in existing centres.  The top four centres identified in the initial analysis of the Talk of the Town results were: Narraweena, Manly Vale, Frenchs Forest and Forestville.  What needs to be taken into consideration when planning for additional dwellings in these centres?

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Comments (27) Expand All Replies

rhjames Comment 1 1 Jul 2010, 8:13 PM

I don't see why Council can't go back to the State Government and tell them that we don't have the transport, water, or space to accommodate any increase in housing.

We can't go on forever increasing population - why not put the brakes on now?

RM Northern Beaches Comment 1.1 2 Jul 2010, 9:59 AM

If we don't increase available housing then we are forcing our children to move out of the region.

We need smarter government, NSW Government has too much fat and we also have too many duplicating local councils. For example, there should be just one local council for the entire northern beaches. Save on wasted over governing costs and red tap and redirect these savings towards end services such as more police on the streets, hospital/nursing home staff, etc, etc and more transport and infrastructure.

As a start, there should be a healthy bonus to public servants who identify wasted resources and also provide a workable alternative solution. At present they are encouraged to fully spend their budgets to ensure they are not cut the following year.

In summary: More housing for the sake of our children, smarter leaner less costly government and more end-services, infrastructure and transport.

rhjames Comment 1.1.1 2 Jul 2010, 10:41 AM

I agree with what you say about councils and rheir duplication and inefficiency.

However, if there is no increase in population, then there is no need for an increase in housing, and our children have as much room as we have now. I don't understand this need for high immigration (where most of our increase comes from) when we are struggling now with things like water supply, transport and housing. Why do we want to turn our area into high density living, just because the Government says they want more people.

As I said, population can't go on expanding forever. If we don't do something about it, Mother Nature will, and she's ruthless.

RM Northern Beaches Comment 1.1.1.1 2 Jul 2010, 11:55 AM

There are several factors that input in to population growth (1) the birth rate, (2) aging population and (3) net immigration levels. Surely we don't want to reduce 1 and 2, which leaves reducing immigration, which we can do a bit but not completely. For instance, we still have a skills shortage. Where I work we employed 20 new engineers over the last 12 months, unfortunately we were forced to employ 18 from overseas and the same applies to many professions (eg Doctors and Nurses). We should subsidise the skills shortage degrees and pay for this by charging extra for those degrees where we have over supply. This may take 10 or 15 years to fix the skills shortage areas, so in the mean time we need the skilled migration. The Northern Beach is also a high demand area for Australians to move to, but we can’t put a hold on Australians wanting to cross the Spit Bridge, but an independant Northern Beaches does sound interesting.

bwonna Comment 1.1.2 9 Jul 2010, 5:44 PM

It is not a birth right to live in such a beautiful place as the Northern Beaches. It is a fact of life that not everyone's kids can own a home here. If we made space for everyone it would not be as attractive a place to live. It's harsh, but would you want to live here if it was all medium density and the traffic jams lasted all day?

Globalocal Comment 1.1.3 15 Jul 2010, 8:45 PM

There are other factors to consider that are beyond Council control. For example many elderly people stay in their homes because it would ruin them financially to sell up and move if they are on a pension. This is due to the means testing tied to getting the pension as well as stamp duty costs etc.

We could argue that having worked a full life anyone should be entitled to a pension but this is open to debate. However given that these elderly people, who don't necessarily want to stay in their large houses, are tying down a lot of housing stock that could be released for new families in the area, I would think someone should be assessing the cost of paying a few extra pensions and greatly reducing stamp duty for pensioners own homes in order to release what could be a hefty amount of housing stock. Maybe dye has some Planning Institute figures on this?

RM Northern Beaches Comment 1.1.3.1 16 Jul 2010, 9:38 AM

In regards to Globalocal's comment, Stamp Duty was never meant to be the major revenue that it is today, but that is now the way it is. However in my opinion Stamp Duty should at least be changed in two ways (1) It should be paid by the seller of the property (rather than buyer) and (2) Elderly people meeting a means test should be fully or at least partly exempt when down sizing.

For example young couples trying to move in to their first home (probably a unit) would have no Stamp Duty, when they start having a family and more…

 

Globalocal Comment 1.1.3.1.1 16 Jul 2010, 7:02 PM

Well put. This sounds very sensible and is a way of easing several problems with one action. My point was only that State government is putting a lot of pressure on Councils while not being very proactive in areas where they could actually help solve the problem. In that regard I would agree with rhjames that Council should at least be able to raise it as a matter of public concern with State Government.

bwonna Comment 1.2 9 Jul 2010, 5:38 PM

Absolutely! If not, they will be back in 10 years looking to add another 20,000 dwellings.

Kevin Rudd was in favour of a 'big Australia' and he got kicked out! Now is the time to have the debate about what our population size should be, not just accept what the lame duck State Government tells the council to accommodate

rhjames Comment 1.2.1 9 Jul 2010, 8:36 PM

bwonna - It's great to have someone agreeing with me. Rather than accept that we need to accommodate more people, just ask the question "Why?". I'm yet to receive a satisfactory answer. We need more people asking this basic question.

jennyb Comment 1.3 10 Aug 2010, 10:06 PM

It would be great if council could stand up and say no to the current State Government. Unfortunately under the current labour government Council are in a no win situation. If Council take that approach which most of us agree with, then the planning decisions and rezoning will be taken out of their hands as it was for Kur-ring-gai Council.

Kur-ring-gai now have multi storey high rise develoments clustered in amongst heritage listed homes. The only way to stop inappropriate future ghettos in our suburbs is to vote the goverment out.

The NSW Liberal party have said that they will rewrite the planning act and most importantly remove part 3A of the act which currently gives the Planning Minister power to overide Council decision making in major developments. Pittwater Council was bypassed by Mirvac using Part 3A of the act and now Warriewood Valley is going to have nine storey high rise developments .

Andrew Comment 2 1 Jul 2010, 10:10 PM

I can see one potential stumbling block being the existing lot sizes in the targeted areas. If existing lot sizes are 400-500m2, then it is going to be a lot tougher getting dual occupancy compared to an area with an average lot size of 700-800m2.

Additional employment zoning needs to be incorporated into any increased densities, as the commuting corridors for residents working in the City and North Sydney are already choked.

The neighbourhood shopping areas in the targeted areas will need just as much, if not more money than the recent Freshwater upgrade to improve local amenity and attract a better mix of retailer than exists in some of these local shopping precincts at present.

dye Comment 3 3 Jul 2010, 10:20 AM

The Planning Institute of Australia says the NSW Government Planning Dept fails

to substantiate its population projections, targets and dwelling occupancy assumptions. The 10,300 homes figure is therefore to be questioned, as would be the up-zoning requirement flowing on from that. If the council is to blithely

go ahead and up-zone the top four centres for medium or high rise development base on shonky figures this would be irresponsible. A 1.1 million

population increase does not require 640,000 new homes. This is 1.72 people

per home. The Planning Dept's own estimate on people per home is 2.51 by

2031. This gives 440,00 new homes, not 640,000. Lets get the figures right

before we start.

Globalocal Comment 3.1 15 Jul 2010, 8:34 PM

If this is correct then I think we are entitled to have Council ask the State Government to justify their numbers. Increased housing also means increased transport in and out of the area which is a State government responsibility they have been shirking for years. Any increased housing should be linked to transport upgrades. Car traffic over the Spit bridge barely functions in morning peak hours at present. I'd hate to think what this costs in wasted petrol and carbon footprints.

While I've lived in the area we have been given proposals for Spit bridge upgrades, light rail from the city, tunnels connecting to the Harbour tunnel and a rail link from Chatswood via Frenchs Forest to Dee Why. Nothing has happened with any of them.

Of course the question would then be do we want more traffic connections to the Peninsula? If anything I would think only a public tranport connection would be possible or acceptable, and any planning should guarantee a decrease in car traffic. On the whole I would agree with rhjames and bwonna. I think if Council can link transport planning to increased housing we won't have to worry about providing that extra housing.

bwonna Comment 4 9 Jul 2010, 5:32 PM

The big issue is that SHOROC and Warringah Council have accepted that Warringah should accept 10,618 additional dwellings by 2031 without a fight. Why? Our 'big Australia' PM was just kicked out and the State Government that created these targets will be gone soon. Let’s not destroy Warringah with overcrowding. Let’s have a proper debate about the targets. The issue si that the state government wants to destroy the character of Warringah and the Council is not standing up to them, on our behalf.

Jamie Comment 4.1 28 Jul 2010, 1:18 PM

Certain city centres in Warringah are already overcrowded without future thought for infrastructure problems.

The State Govt. takes a blind approach and adopts fraudulent feasibility studies focused on infrastructure impacts e.g. traffic impacts of DY town centre project and expects the existing rate payers to sit on their hands.

When will we have a council who has the guts to say no to the high and mighty ministers who play the "lets push this button game"?

Simon Comment 5 14 Jul 2010, 3:18 PM

Is there a reason why North Manly, between Harbord and Pittwater Road, has not been mentioned as a great area to have more intensive housing. It is adjacent to our biggest shopping centre, one of the major bustops and is very close to schools. The blocks are big and flat enough to make development feasible for both semi-attached and townhouse style housing.

Globalocal Comment 5.1 15 Jul 2010, 7:56 PM

As long as it above the flood plain level this sounds like a good idea. Maybe it could include a pedestrian bridge over Pittwater Road straight into Warringah Mall. While the other locations have local shopping centres, in the end I would guess most people in the region will go to the Mall at least a couple times a month. So the more housing that can be located within walking distance to the largest shopping centre in the area the better for traffic.

jennyb Comment 5.2 10 Aug 2010, 10:16 PM

Is the area you are referring to in Manly Vale? If so it was considered the most suitable place in Ward B to accommodate future growth at the 'Talk of the Town' community forum with a 48% vote.

Simon Comment 5.2.1 24 Aug 2010, 7:12 PM

No Manly Vale is not the area I'm talking about. I do think Manly Vale is also a good area to continue with more intensive housing as it is also on the bus line and near major shopping facilities. I say "continue" because Manly Vale has been somewhat developed in recent years and is in danger of becoming a mini Dee Why and that is not what we want to do. The area I'm talking about is directly to the east of Warringah Mall. It is currently all houses and rather than build units I'm saying we should do semi's and townhouses so that the area keeps more of its family style tradition. Everybody talks about how hard it is for new home buyers but another less talked about problem is the jump that young couples take from an apartment ($500,000) to a house ($1.2m). Let's get some semi's and townhouses at $900,000 to ease that step into the larger property and continue to develop a type of housing that is not offensive to the current residents/landowners.

more trees Comment 5.3 20 Sep 2010, 1:06 PM

If more dwellings must be provided, there is some sense to having higher density residential development at North Manly (Freshwater West) between the Mall and east of Kentwell Road. That area is easy walking distance to Warrinah Mall, Brookvale industrial area and major bus transport. But the same is true of North Manly on the western side of Condamine Street (Lower Allambie), lower Beacon Hill north of the Mall, and similarly all the land 500 m either side of Pittwater Road to manly Wharf, and 500 m either side of Condamine Street through Manly Vale and Balgowlah to the Totem more…

 

Brocky Comment 6 10 Aug 2010, 10:20 AM

Take a look at Forestway and Warringah road in mornings and evening and tell me how more commuters could be sustained in the Forest area. Both Warringah Rd and Forestway are gridlocked every weekday between 7.00 and 9.30 at least. Despite all the planning by state and local government there never seems to be a plan.

jennyb Comment 6.1 10 Aug 2010, 10:38 PM

Unfortunately the community were given very little choice when identifying these areas for council at 'Talk of the Town'. Essentially we were told that Council had no choice in the matter and as a community we had to identify areas most suitable for accommodating future growth. No growth wasnt an option. Two of the guest speakers indicated that future housing targets should be located adjacent to existing public transport. Warringah Road from Pittwater Road will soon become gridlocked as Narraweena explodes with a couple of thousand new homes. Forest way cannot accommodate any traffic increase from any direction during peak hour.

RLJB Comment 7 12 Aug 2010, 11:21 AM

Removed by moderator - this comment was not relevant to this forum topic. It has however been forwarded by the moderation team to Council staff for their consideration. Thank you for your input.

RLJB Comment 8 12 Aug 2010, 12:37 PM

apologies RLJB - you previous comment has been forwarded to council staff for consideration of the issues you have raised

DrMary Comment 9 14 Aug 2010, 10:03 AM

Before any development takes place in these areas council must undertake traffic assessments. Council have been advised that any further development in Brookvale would result in gridlocked traffic.

The same studies MUST be carried at out on the impacts on peak hour traffic on an already congested Warringah road from Pittwater road to Roseville bridge.

The impact of the proposed hospital at Frenchs Forest should be considered in any traffic studies.

No additional targets should be proposed in any suburbs without these studies.

Public transport requirements must be increased with Council providing park and ride locations to encourage increased use of public transport.

jbenson Comment 10 6 Oct 2010, 10:15 AM

If you look at a colour-coded map of population density in Sydney, Dee Why shows up as a bright-red splotch - the highest density. Right now.

We all agree we have inadequate transport infrastructure for the existing population. So why nominate Narraweena (McIntosh Rd) as your No.1 area for additional medium density housing? You are just making that dysfunctional red splotch bigger.

At the very least nominate areas up in Frenchs Forest or Terry Hills that are sparsely inhabited with big blocks.

And I agree with all the remarks on the forum regarding the biased framework of the Talk of the Town voting more…

 
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